The fourth episode of the Ruling Passions Project’s podcast is now live on the podcast page, and also on spotify, apple, google podcasts, amazon podcasts, audible and probably most other podcast places!
[Content warning] this episode includes mention of trauma, challenging early autistic experiences, mental health, food / eating and dysphoria.
There is some background noise in this episode as Billie was in a cafe. There is also some swearing.
In this Episode I talk to Billie Jo Gibson (he / they) who is a National Equity, Diversity and Inclusion officer for the Northern Idependence Party and works in a hospitality job. Billie was diagnosed autistic when they were four years old.
In this episode we talk about early diagnosis, friendships, masking, growing up, Speech and Language therapy, forced social interaction and growing up as an autistic child, self-acceptance, gender identity / being trans, hyperfocus, childhood special interests, politics, class, the cost of living crisis, issues with the Labour Party, Northern Independent Party, Democratic Socialism, Disability and PIP assessment, trauma and mental health assessment, Grand Theft Auto and Liverpool / Scouse Culture.
Additional multimedia links and transcript available below…
Episode 4: Transcript
CONTENT WARNING:
* Trauma.
* Challenging early autistic experiences.
* Mental health diagnosis/misdiagnosis
* Food and eating.
* Body dysphoria.
CB: [00:15] Welcome to the Ruling Passions Podcast. This podcast is one part of a research project with the same name, which seeks to explore autistic adults passionate interests from a sociocultural perspective. I’m Chris Bailey, an autistic senior lecturer and research from Sheffield Hallam University, and across a series of episodes I will be reflecting on aspects of autistic lived experience in relation to what are often called autistic special interests.
[00:44] I will be talking to other autistic people about their own interests, in order to illuminate the complexity and diversity of autistic culture, as a means of depathologizing the discourse around autism. I am grateful to the UK Literacy Association, the UKLA, for funding this project with a research grant, and to Sheffield Hallam University for supporting the project with a fellowship.
You can find more about the project itself by going to the website at www.rulingpassions.wordpress.com.
[01:17] Welcome to another episode of the Ruling Passions Podcast. As usual, I’m going to start by handing over to this episode’s guest by asking them to tell us a little bit about themselves.
B: [01:26] I’m Billie. I am actually autistic. I am 24 and I turn 25 in- June 7th, so that’s like a couple of weeks. I was diagnosed autistic when I was 4 years old, which is really rare. Because people who were assigned female at birth, obviously it’s quite harder for them to be diagnosed at a young age and I was really lucky in that sense.
[01:55] So just to quickly go on about how I got the autism diagnosis. I had like development delays when I was 10 months old. Like my ma, Elaine, who unfortunately died in 2017, she noticed I had like development delay issues around 10 months and the health visitor came, and they were like ‘Uh-oh, Billie’s not progressing as they should’ and I wasn’t like walking and talking properly until I was about 3 or 4, and essentially from that point after the health visitor came all these doctors were like poking and prodding me. I was going through all manners of appointments. They were wanting to rule out that it wasn’t something physically wrong with me and I remember my very first autistic meltdown.
[02:40] I think I was about three years old and I went to Whiston Hospital, in like the little kiddies department, and I just remember I was so, excuse my language. Am I allowed to swear? I will try not to.
[02:52] You’re fine, go for it.
B: [02:52] I was so fucking traumatised, legitimately. I had this paediatrician was pinning me down to the floor to get blood out of my ankle, because not only was I having a sensory issue with like the overwhelming environment, but I had also from that point on onwards it just made me traumatised of needles and then I think that he must have said something to the doctor that said ‘Whatever this is, this isn’t physical’ and then I just remember, I think it was about two weeks in to primary school, it was like my second ever meltdown in primary school, like on the first day of primary school, but two weeks in to primary school I was taken in to this big and strange building and I walked in to the door and all of a sudden I just walked in and I was having some like stimmy thing going on, like my hands were in my mouth and they were going like [aaaaahh] and then literally the doctor just snapped his fingers and went ‘Yeah, he’s autistic’ and he sat me down and he had me just like scribbling and like colour with crayons and paper and he just went ‘What does autism meant to you?’, and I was just sat there like clueless and dumbfounded as fuck. Like ‘What the fuck does that word even mean?’, do you know what I mean, like?
[04:14] And yeah, that is essentially how I got diagnosed autistic when I was four. He just sat down with my parents our Elaine and our Colin, and he turned around and said ‘Yeah, your son Billie’, because I’m defined as non-binary by the way, and I will get to that in a minute, he basically turned around and said ‘Yeah, your son’s autistic’ and me ma’s face was absolutely gobsmacked and she was absolutely devastated. She thought that I was like screwed for life basically. He turned around and he went to my mum ‘Oh it’s alright he’s’, because obviously I don’t like the term of like using functioning labels and stuff, but he turned around and he said to my mum ‘There’s a good possibility your son can develop to be high functioning’ and if you look at now, I’m the National Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Officer for the Northern Independence Party, I work part time in a precarious zero hours hospitality job and I’ve got my own council property, or housing association property, but still.
And how you think about yourself, in terms of being autistic now, has it always been quite positive, or that young experience, does that feel quite negative to you at the time?
[05:23] Back when I was little I didn’t know what the hell was going on in my head. All I knew was that lights were too bright and people were making fun of me in primary school, outside of primary school and it was desperate to make friends in primary school I just remembered there was this girl who came up to me in reception and she said ‘Hi, what’s your name?’ and I said hi, I’m [dead name]’ obviously, and she was like ‘Would you like to play with me?’ and my autistic brain went ‘no’, my autistic brain just said ‘no’ and I was just sat there thinking, stood there thinking ‘I said no, I want to play on my own, sorry’, and I just ran off, and it just made me think like obviously I’ve been socially inept ever since I was very little and now I’ve obviously gotten better at it because I’ve learnt like masking techniques and stuff, but I think also growing up, I wouldn’t say it was absolute hell, because I know that there are people out there who have had it way worse than me, but I was – yeah, I think the thing that has probably traumatised me the most, as an autistic- And now I know it’s not ABA but I kind of view it in a similar light to AB, but I was put through speech and language therapy from about 5 up until about 7, 8, 9 and I was put in this little room with this woman and she said to me ‘Put the teddy bear under the table, Billie’ and I was just sat there thinking ‘Alright, you want me to put the teddy bear under the table then’, but the way that she was doing it, it was making it out to make me look like I didn’t know how to follow instructions. Well I can follow instructions, but not just that, it was just the way that she was trying to get me to make eye-contact with her at the time.
[07:23] I think that is probably what traumatised me as well, the fact that we had someone from the NHS trying to get me to be less autistic. Obviously in secondary school I had a phase where I was like ultra-ultra-feminine just to try and fit in and like mask with all the other girls and AFAB people and it was just horrible at the time, because I was living in an abusive house. I didn’t know it was abusive back then. And I think that I felt like the fact I was segregated form the neurotypical kids at lunchtime.
[07:58] They gave me this magic pass; so once I had this free school meal I would come back to the special needs classroom at lunch and I’d be segregated with all the other special needs kids. This teaching assistant had it in her head, she had the smart idea to go ‘Oh, why don’t we get Billie her friend’, and it was basically like forced social interaction and I was like her friend for like five years through secondary and my ma would invite her out for birthday meals and stuff, and yeah, I would get it – like obviously forced social interaction and that, but when the school kind of like forces you to do something you’re not really comfortable and then looking back on it from like later in life going wow, I really went through all of that.
[08:45] I think that you know enough as an autistic young person, you kind of really- There was good moments and some bad moments, so like there were good moments like …..youth theatre or like the local youth group at the church, playing footie with the lads. That was like the good moments and that, but I just feel like if I had learnt to be more accepting of myself as a young child and rather than just be like ‘Why am I acting this way? Why can’t I fit in?’ then it would have made a lot more sense.
[09:21] Yeah, and it sounds like a lot of your experience and the negative experiences when other people are trying to make you someone you’re not.
B: [09:30] Exactly!
[09:32] Through, like you talked about the forced socialisation or the experience at speech and language. It’s making assumptions about you that aren’t true and making you see yourself in a way that isn’t authentic to you.
B: [09:49] Exactly, and that’s the thing. Like I don’t want to talk about all the negative experiences of me being autistic because obviously there are always upsides to that which I’ll talk about later, but I think that’s what I’m going to talk about later on. The impact it’s had on my mental health, being autistic and that.
[10:10] I was growing up as a young child and I just felt that something wasn’t right with my body, and at first I thought maybe it’s because I’m putting on more weight than I should have, because of like my dad feeding me junk food and how that links in to my now self-diagnosed avoidant restrictive food intake disorder but I came to the realisation at the age of, I think it was like 13 or 14 when I was forcing myself to go through the hyperfeminine phase. I came to the realisation that I had come to hate who I am, and not just like my physical appearance, but just like my whole body. I came to hate it, and I thought maybe it’s down to like that time of the month every month, and I brushed it off and I said if I still feel this way up until 16, 17, 18 I will know for definite and essentially I just- The dysphoria was there since 13 and it’s been there ever since. I came to the realisation that I’m a non-binary person who leans more towards masculinity.
[11:25] Now I thought it was just a trans man at like 16, 17, and then I kind of came to the realisation that I don’t really want bottom surgery, because I don’t think I would feel right, but at the same time I don’t feel like proper feminine either, and I just kind of like lost sense of reality in terms of who I was as a person and who my gender is.
[11:59] Because obviously I went to Catholic high schools and so they never gave me any education on these kinds of issues. I was kind of left to figure it out and that is why I kind of went through the hyperfeminine phase just to kind of confirm that I was genuinely dysphoric and also just to kind of like fit and blend in with kind of life and it didn’t work. I only ended up having a mental breakdown at 16. So yeah, that is how come I’m trans now, so- I identify as primarily a non-binary person. If we were to put a more micro label on it I would say masculine androgyne. I am not really sure about doing micro labels. I just would rather say I’m non-binary so then that word, it’s more of an umbrella term.
[12:55] Yeah, and it’s about defining in the way that suits you and not doing something that other people feel you need to do. So absolutey. Thank you for that introduction to yourself. That gives us some really interesting background in relation to your identity as an autistic person in relation to gender and yeah, it gives us a really interesting starting point for now talking about what this podcast focuses on.
What does it mean? What does the term special interest mean to you?
B: [13:30] I think the thing about special interests is that it is just like a generalisation that’s applied to all autistic people and I appreciate like I’m someone who I would classify as having, rather than special interests I would just say that I have more of a, oh, how do I put this? Hyperfocus on certain topics? Because I am also going through ADHD assessment at the minute on the right to choose with Psychiatry UK. I did all my paperwork like last December and they acknowledged it in January and said ‘Well, your appointment is in October/November’ but the way that I new it as an autistic person is that obviously each autistic person is different in the way that they’re born and as they grow up they will just naturally gravitate more towards certain subjects and passions.
[14:28] So when I was young my special interest was Doctor Who and that ran from about 6, 7, 8 from the reboots right up until about 18, 19, and I grew out of that obviously. And then obviously another one was Everton FC and premier league football. So that was some of my older specialists interests that I had as a child and I kind of like naturally gravitated towards those. And for some reason, computer games and skateboarding. Like I wanted to be a skateboarder when I was younger and I just see all of these skateboarders in town and I would just be like ‘I want to be like them, I want to learn how to skateboard’ and it just never materialised.
Yes, so for you it’s like already you’ve mentioned a few things from when you’re a kid and they are really different things, aren’t they. There is a difference between Doctor Who and skateboarding, but that thing that makes it a thing for you is hyperfixation on something, and that can be a variety of different things. So in terms of childhood that is the things that you’ve started recalling but what is in your life that you consider that kind of hyperfixated experience now?
B: [15:51] Well I would say primarily at the minute it’s politics. Everybody bangs on at me, ‘Billie, why are you so fucking political?’ but at the end of the day it’s like I basically grew up disadvantaged. I would consider myself someone who is on, is it class E of the social scale. I don’t know the whole ins and outs. I need to like get really in to that and the social scale and stuff, but I would consider myself to be working class, due to the nature of my income, how I earn my income, and the fact that I rely primarily on disability benefits to get me through, but it was also like growing up in council housing and stuff, and just seeing like the poor state of council housing, as I was growing up as a child, and then obviously moving in to the private rented accommodation that was riddled with mice and we had like a big mouse problem in that house growing up, as an older child and teenager.
I just like obviously I didn’t know much about politics. All I knew was that my mum would vote Labour and that was it, and then obviously with the way that the state is going, at the minute we’ve got the cost-of-living crisis, Partygate, but I’m not really going to focus too much on that, because I feel that that is more of a distraction and coverup on the cost-of-living crisis. We’ve got a charlatan politician who does not know what he’s doing. And we have a so-called leader of the opposition who is actually voting with the Tories and this was all doing my head in, like this is all currently doing my head in.
I first joined Labour, 2019 I joined. I was following Jeremy since 2017, but I joined in 2019 and then so many abuse, I’ve got like transphobia from members of the Labour party who were claiming to be Labour. And also neurodivergent Labour, who I was volunteering for as like the web developer and lead graphic designer, and I was just- I’m not going to go too much in to it, because I have got other stuff to talk about, but I just had to leave Labour the minute that Kier visited Jesus House, I was like right, that’s it, I’m not staying in the party that does not care about its members. And says it does. But does the complete fucking opposite. I’m sorry for swearing so much.
[18:35] It’s fine, it’s fine.
B: So yeah, essentially I joined the Northern Independence Party not long after they established themselves in October 2020 and Philip Proudfoot is the leader, he’s an amazing leader and David Heaven is our deputy leader. So basically I was just looking in to what they stood for as a party and it was like democratic socialism, but not continuity Corbyn, and I’m like good, because this is what we need. Because as much as I admire Jeremy Corbyn, I feel like if you follow other party examples like breakthrough, where you do a continuity Corbyn, you might get good results in the short term but in the long term I feel like people have got to be more switched off, whereas we’ve got a plan to radicalise and shake up the economy by introducing the Preston model of economics, bringing about a green new deal revolution and nationalising mail, rail and electricity companies and transport. Because at the end of the day we have got a cost-of-living crisis going on, and Dishy Rishi only cares about handing out a lot of GPP contracts to hair salons in Liverpool. Boris Johnson only cares about covering up lies and corruption and scandals and this is what it is. Westminster is fundamentally corrupt and this is what’s happening with the North South divide.
[20:18] Yeah I will admit you do have some really poor areas in London but the point is that there are really poor boroughs in London but it’s caused by Westminster corruption. If you look at the North South divide, you’ve got 3.6 billion that was taken from the North’s budget and it just magically disappeared, and then 4.7 billion was added to the south’s budget and obviously like I’m not saying that the south doesn’t have problems, because the south does have problems but if you live in the south you’re more …problems rather than up north, so for example in London, correct me if I’m wrong, I believe the bus fare is like £1.50 but up here in London it’s £2.30 per single and I think what would be really good is if we could introduce a fixed fare on all the buses in Merseyside because I feel like that would really help with the cost of living crisis, if they just cut the bus fares, cut the Scouse Tube, which is basically like a mini version of the London Underground, and that would help for a start.
I think that Steve Rotheram said he was going to re-nationalise Liverpool’s buses and have like Mersey travel branded Metro bus? But yeah, basically the North’s budget has been drained by Westminster because Westminster is internationally corrupt. They don’t care whether you’re red, blue, orange, green. They are all the same. And this is why our party is different. Because we have a message for the people, and that is a message of hope, and that things must change, and that we can change things if you do vote for the Northern Independence Party.
[22:09] It just sounds like you’re really driven by a wish for fairness, based on your own experiences, and politics. Politics has a really significant role in your life, doesn’t it.
B: It does yeah, because obviously I’m autistic, and I get that there is other autistic people as well, and other disabled people, and the way that the government has decimated services for disabled people is astonishing. If you look at what the DPW has recently done, I have just had to do my PIP renewal papers, and I have had to ask for an extension on that, because of my undiagnosed ADHD, but what has happened is that the DWP has now got something in place where they can request mass bank account data and they can arrest you for fraud!
[22:57] Oh I saw, absolutely, yeah, putting those powers in the hands of the people who are assessing, when we know that the people who are assessing-
B: [23:13] Fraudulent.
[23:15] Yeah, extremely problematic people, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
B: Who falsify the disability assessors for PIP and the work capability assessments, they falsify the reports, because the DWP, they don’t want you to know this but I am telling you this; they falsified the reports because the DWP, as set out by the Tories, has a secret target to hit to automatically reject a number of personal independent payments and employment support allowance claims, and they don’t want you to know this, because they don’t like it when you take them to tribunal. You shouldn’t have to prove you’re disabled enough. You should just go ‘Here is my diagnosis letter, I am not blagging, this is how my condition affects me’ and they will go ‘Okay, whatever here is the money’ but unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. And it is a very, very, very minute amount of people who do cheat the system and that is what gets society to put the whole ‘everyone on benefits is a scrounger’ label, and it is absolutely unfair.
[24:16] Yes, I have a family member who has had to go to tribunal twice, both times it’s been absolutely accepted that they deserve the money, but they have been pushed there by the system and so yeah, putting power in the hands of those people is incredibly problematic.
Well, they already have power, don’t they, but putting more power in their hands is a real problem, so yeah, I’m totally with you there.
B: I was very lucky in the instance when I first applied PIP back in like 2016 and I was awarded like the enhanced daily living rate, and I am not going to disclose amounts, and it was £20 than what I was getting on current DLA rates and I didn’t really do anything about it until there was a tribunal case some time in 2018/19 and it was this man who had mental health issues. I don’t know his name, but he took the DWP to tribunal in terms of overwhelming psychological distress on public transport and basically the judicial review found that claimants who are able-bodied may have like invisible disabilities like autism, ADHD, whatever it is, and that they may face overwhelming psychological distress when out and about travelling.
Basically I told this to my assessor in the initial report and he just said ‘I need getting on a bus because I’m anxious’ and I said no, that’s not right. But I dropped it because I was getting £20 more than what I was on DLA. Until when I got a letter saying they had reviewed my claim and it was staying the same. And I was thinking no, hang on, that is wrong. So that is when I took them to tribunal. Fortunately I did get rang up just before a tribunal date was due to be set and they did give me some compensation and they put their hands up and said we screwed your claim up, you were entitled to this money and here is some back pay from what you were entitled.
[26:19] And what you’ve talked about is some of the immense challenges that disabled people have in getting what they are legally entitled to, in terms of financial support and that extends to other support for people as well. So yeah, absolutely challenge it.
And politics is a way in to trying to do something about that, isn’t it. And it sounds like that is kind of a big motivation for you.
B: Absolutely, and that is kind of like why I’m invested in politics. So how I ended up in my position as the National Equity, Diversity and Inclusion officer was that the NIP were doing internal elections for the NEC and they put the post up and I was thinking hmm, I am autistic, I’m a trans, non-binary person, I live in a council house, I would consider myself working class. I’m not like the best democratic socialist out there, because I don’t profess to be the best but I’m an ordinary, honest, working-class person and they did an internal election and I got elected, which is great.
Brilliant, yeah, well done. [27:30]
B: [27:28] In my time working as officer, I have set up a working group for a Neuro Divergent Northern Independence Party and LGBT Northern Independence Party in which I am still actively working on with the membership. I stood as councillor candidate for my area in Liverpool in 2021, and then again this year. The first time I only got 34 votes, but this time I more than doubled my votes and I got 97 votes, which is something I am really happy with.
It sounds like you’re doing amazing work. If anyone wants to get in contact with you about any of this, where is the best place to find you?
B: Oh, if anyone would like to get more involved with myself or the party, my twitter handle is @MerseyNIP_Chair and if you want to follow the party on social media, the Northern Independence Party’s handle is @FreeNorthNow on Twitter, and I believe it’s FreeTheNorth on Instagram. If I am not mistaken. If you would like to join the website it’s FreeTheNorth.co.uk/join.
I will put all that information along with your podcast when it goes up so people can find it and click on things if they want to. So, as a hyperfixation, politics is a thing that is a significant part of your life now.
B: [28:58] Yes.
[28:59] Where would you like to go next with the conversation? More politics, or somewhere else?
B: [29:05] Nah, I think that I’m going to go more on to mental health.
[29:09] Okay, cool.
B: [29:10] So when I was 14, I wasn’t aware I was being abused and now I don’t want to go in to too much specifics, but I was abused for 8 years. It was sexual abuse, and I never really told anyone up until more recently about the abuse I had endured. I thought that something wasn’t right in my head and I was like ‘What’s going on’ and then they were like ‘Oh Billie, you’ve got generalised anxiety disorder, blah de blah, blah de blah’ and then I got depression, and then that hit really hard especially around GCSE’s and stuff, but then I started getting like extra things on top of that, like I was getting mood swings, I was becoming paranoid and is tarted hearing voices in my head and I basically got sent for assessment and they send me to early intervention and she said ‘I think that you need to go for an autism assessment’ and I was just sat there thinking yeah, I didn’t tell you I’m autistic because you would just tell me this is me being autistic, and I was just like absolutely confused because I didn’t want to give the jig up that I’m autistic. I had been sent all over the place.
[30:28] One of them was a really good joke because he basically just turned around and said you need god in your life and a pet and a routine and whatever is wrong with you, it will magically disappear, well, he didn’t say ‘magically disappear’ but he was making it out like it would magically disappear and I’m like ‘Who are you to tell me that? You’re an NHS professional and you’re telling me that I just need god in my life and a dog and a routine? I think when I went back for the most recent assessment, erm, which was my 8th assessment, basically they tried to deny seeing me, because they misquoted me as not wanting to take medication. Which was false, because I took three different antidepressants, none of which had worked, but essentially on my 6th assessment they misdiagnosed me as having emotionally unstable personality disorder because I think they were fed up of not wanting to deal with me and then more recently they have actually pulled their finger out of their arses and went ‘Oh no, we’ve got this wrong the whole time’, and I was like ‘What?’, because obviously I’m seeing like a specialist counsellor who deals in CSA’ but it turned out like after like 8 years of wanting to know what the hell was wrong with my had besides me being autistic, they have finally found the correct label, and it’s complex post-traumatic stress disorder with trauma linked psychosis. And I was just sat there thinking ‘Why didn’t you just listen to me?’ because after all these doctors telling me ‘No, you’re just autistic, no, you’re just anxious’ and this is why I am on the Canary’s Amplified Programme and I’m currently writing an article which is entitled ‘Out Autistic Revolution for Mental Health Justice’ because when you think of someone being autistic in mental health you tend to think of three things. You think of generalised anxiety disorder, depression, or OCD. You don’t really think about the more complex, and I don’t really like using the word complex, but you don’t really think of the more complex conditions, like complex PTSD or schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, or even personality disorder and they need to radically change the mental health system and make sure that autistic people can get their voices heard whilst getting the appropriate treatment, and that is why I’m a mental health advocate as well. And, like I said, that is why I’m on the Canary’s amplified programme, because I need to get this word out that autistic people can and do have bad mental health episodes, but they can also have good mental health.
And this is where Grand Theft Auto links in; because I built my gaming PC in 2017, yeah, I built it in 2017 and unfortunately it’s broke at the minute but I was looking for like a good video game to destress me and I came across Grand Theft Auto and it was like crime simulation and it’s basically, yeah it really helps with my trauma because when I get anger outburst, when the PC is not broke I can just go on Grand Theft Auto online and I can just take it out on all these other players, and I think that it’s just having that safe space to take out your anger and all your frustration on somebody or something without actually harming anything.
And you can like load cargo shipments up, you can shoot down NPCs, you can rob the Diamond Casino and all that kind of stuff, and it just really helps when I’m traumatised and angry from the trauma.
[34:18] Yes, video games often have a bad rap, don’t they. People associate them with violence and negativity and all sorts of negative behaviour, but for you it’s been very much the opposite. The experience with video games has helped you work through things in your own life, from the sounds of it.
B: Absolutely, video games have immensely helped me move on from the trauma. I am not saying I’m in the best place, but I am in a better place than where I was. I would say that it’s built up the courage for me to finally report to the police about the historic abuse, which is something I never thought I would do. But yeah, I am in a better place than what I was, and at the end of the day I care passionately about autistic and other neurodivergent people and that is why I’m in the role I am with the Northern Independence Party and that.
From the sound of it you’re doing brilliant work in terms of politics, and brilliant advocacy work and turning some of your experiences in to things, in to action that could help other people have more positive experiences in their lives. I know you’ve got to go now because the café you’re in is closing.
B: Yes, the coffee shop is closing unfortunately.
[35:35] So I’m going to say thank you for talking to me today–
B: [35:38] But just before I go, if anyone wants to check out the 0151 Scousecast on Spotify it’s a project I’m working on. I started it during lockdown and I only managed to record one episode, which was on the trans day of visibility, but I’m looking at actually getting back in to it and recording more episodes because it’s a podcast about all things Liverpool and scouse culture, which I never really got around to talking about but I can talk about that more another time when we podcast, so it’s all sound.
Awesome, I will put the link to that in when I put this up. So thanks so much for speaking to me, I will catch up with you soon, alright.
B: [36:19] Brilliant and thank you so much for having me as a guest.
Hey, it’s so nice to speak to you, you take care.
B: [36:24] And by to all the listeners, have a boss evening. Bye!
(end of recording)
Ruling Passions 